very close, worth watching except the single pov and the end is kind of lame

goblin moves a little like paradoks...

SR WAS ALREADY A GREAT CLAN...!!! LOSERS


SR SUCKER

The candid truth about ping

I have long thought that ping in QW plays a vital role in the long-term development of a player. If the ping is frequently low then the player is much apt to perform and master risky moves because the low ping enables him to pull it off consistently. This is why when you see a normally low ping player, playing with high ping they still move and play pretty much the same complexity because having frequent low ping afforded them the ability to master it. Frequently higher ping players don't have the same flexibility of movement and precision so they tend to avoid it since they have a lower consistency in their gameplay while attempting to master complex moves. Obviously the same logic applies to computer, settings, and mouse speed but this is much more difficult to analyze because it's perfectly reasonable to assume that some computers that are slower will run some games far better than a competing faster computers. Computer speed and settings are more relative as software is designed to target different system platforms

Why does dag never play with higher than 13 ms?

Because consistency in accuracy goes way up. People quite often erroneously measure accuracy in terms of a efficiency %. You will get a high a high efficiency if you only shoot a weapon when you know your shot will connect accurately with the player. Having low ping means you don't have to time an calculate your shot do to a delay in your bandwidth. Instead you can instantly react and pretty much count being consistent in a high level of accuracy.

For every 10ms advantage your opponent has, your skill factor has to be 3-5% higher than theirs to compensate

The lower your milliseconds the faster you can react with a higher accuracy level. Wrist shots and instant reaction becomes more consistent to connect the lower your ping. Therefore the higher pinged player has to compensate with a higher skill factor.

Summary

If you win by 2 frags and your ping is 2 - 4x lower than your opponents it's very possible that on rating of skill factor you actually lost. Keeping that in mind, you have to really wonder if fragcount should be the only determining factor of how a game should be won.

btw #3 youre wrong

Sorry about the horrible grammar and spelling. I should of reviewed what I wrote before submission :|

phil,

I played against someone on an east server who had 40 ping and I had 90 ping. He beat me consistently 3 games in a row by anywhere from 3-6 frags. After we went west where I had 40 ping and he had 90 (pings were reversed) This time I won by a margin of 20+ frags each game. We both played in exactly the same manner we had on the east server meaning the lower pinged player didn't resort to cheap tactics like being evasive (CS) or camping.

The point I'm trying to make is this really proved to me that yes ping *DOES* make a difference.

Usually high ping players try to compensate by playing evasive and defensive and more often than not manage to keep the fragcount down this way (depending on who they are playing of course) If you analyze the points I made above in the sense that both players are equally aggressive throughout the game then for every 10 ms the higher pinged player will need to employ a 3-5% higher skill factor.

Phil is always right. He needs not explain himself.

yes phil is right and i like paradoks ass.

youre seriously exagerating how much ping matters..

3-5% might apply for everything above 40-50ms but certainly not under it

When I have ever played with less than 30 ping I swear it's like magic. It like all my shots connect with flawless accuracy without even trying. I make shots I never even expect to make. Possibly that's just me, but that's truly been my own personal experience.

what a fucking revelation you mean to say ping makes aiming easier? how does having a ping that never changes make you more adept to change compared to a high ping that varies a lot? shut up that makes no sense

There's a lot more here being than low ping makes aiming easier. Upgrade your english skills and you might understand.

The subjects being discussed here are *NOT* taking into account fluctuating ping, so I don't know where you got that from. You can have fluctuating ping no matter if it's high or low. Seriously, UPGRADE YOUR ENGLISH MAN.

what a fucking revelation you mean to say ping makes aiming easier? how does having a ping that never changes make you more adept to change compared to a high ping that varies a lot? shut up that makes no sense

"Because consistency in accuracy goes way up. People quite often erroneously measure accuracy in terms of a efficiency %. You will get a high a high efficiency if you only shoot a weapon when you know your shot will connect accurately with the player. Having low ping means you don't have to time an calculate your shot do to a delay in your bandwidth. Instead you can instantly react and pretty much count being consistent in a high level of accuracy."

Upgrade my english so I can type stupid shit like that and try to make everything sound complicated? So to sum up that whole paragraph.. low ping makes it easier to aim and more hits gives a better efficiency %. Well thanks for that long description of something everyone is aware of professor krang the wonder fuck. Next I want you to write an essay telling us why grenades are good for hitting shit around corners and why health is a good thing to have.

My own experience of all this ping issue is that it does not matter that much if you have 13 or 42 ping, what matters is what you are used to playing with. However, if you let someone that's used to play with 13 ping, play with 42 ping, he will probably not make as good fight as the one used to 42 will do with 13 ping... I don't know how this thought work with higher pings though.

15. No, what was meant is you could have a 30 ping player, playing a 100 ping player and they both finish the match with the around the same accuracy percentage. What this statistic won't tell you is that it only took the 30 ping player a fraction of the time to set up the shot to be as accurate as the 100 ping player. I believe that the delay in reaction is a more important factor than the actual accuracy %. Why? Because if it takes me 1/10th of the time to make the same shot as it would take someone with a higher ping, then I have a considerable advantage.

A low ping player is more likely to do things like "wrist shots" (where you snap the wrist to make a very quick reaction shot) where the higher ping player will not. This is because the low ping player has a much greater consistency for making "wrist shots". The higher ping player will tend to "play it safe" and spend more time setting up their shots so that their shots connect with higher accuracy. The low ping player doesn't need to do this so what ends up invariably happening is both players end up with similar accuracy stats at the end of the game, even though it took the low ping player only a fraction of the time to setup his shots to pull off the same accuracy as the higher ping player.

Example:

player x | ping 30 | accuracy 30% | time spent calculating shot to achieve 30% accuracy -> 0.3 seconds

player y | ping 90 | accuracy 30% | time spent calculating shot to achieve 30% accuracy -> 0.9 seconds

In my example here it takes the 90 ping player 3x as long to react in order to get the same accuracy as the 30 ping player.

If low ping players know they can get a quick fairly accurate shot they're going to take it. They would rather get 30% accuracy than wait as long as the 90 ping player to make a shot and get 40-50% accuracy. 90 ping players don't risk making the rapid reaction shots low ping players do because they know they won't make shots reacting that fast. What ends up happening is the accuracy statistic is telling us the exact same accuracy for both but what it isn't telling us is that it took the 30 ping player 1/3 of the time to react to have that same accuracy.

Anyways #15 (EnglashMajer) this is my explanation for only 1 paragraph of my post #3. In the other paragraphs I talk about entirely other subject matter. I hope this explanation is understandable to you.

xalibur - the problem I think people have in analyzing ping difference is that they look at various people that range in ping. the problem with analyzing other people is that different people will have adapted to different pings by playing on different servers so it's not accurate in giving us useful data.

What we can measure is our own performance and assuming the points I made above are true, then no matter what your skill level, by you having a consistently lower ping *WILL* make you a consistently better player in the long term.

I'll highlight this by saying if right now Xalibur your average ping is 40, then if your ping ever drops to 13 sometime in the future and you play just as often as you do now, then after probably about 3 months, you will be a considerably better player than you would have had you kept playing with 40.

Oneshotflinch, I am not sure you are right. Look at griffin for example. He played hpw for longer than most, he still owned the 1on1 tournaments on LAN's. Well ok, griffin is maybe one of the most talented qw players out there. But if I look back at when I got lpb connection myself. Think it took 1 or 2 weeks to get used to the more "hectic" lpb playing style. However, I believe it made me a less good 1on1 player since I got problem with being too agressive. In my opinion, a good qw player is not defined by his great aim, quick and tricky movement, but rather his talent in strategy.

You would be right that it may actually make you worse initially because your timing would get messed-up. 1-2 weeks is not enough which is why I proposed a timeframe of 3 months. Playing with lower ping takes a whole new strategy of the game. Instead of "playing safe" you have to learn to rely on fast reflex (wrist shots) to really take advantage of low ping. You shoot before you even see your opponent pretty much and trust that you will connect. You will more often than not since your prediction is validated by not having enough delay to offset your aim.

(you're all idiots)



"For every 10ms advantage your opponent has, your skill factor has to be 3-5% higher than theirs to compensate"



That's my favorite part. When I see people pulling out numbers and correlations like that out of their cornholes, it reinforces beyond any doubt that the amount of shit they are full off could, if molded into a long stick, reach from Earth to Moon 14591.15 times.

phil, i hear ya dude, and I'm sure all geniuses are narrow minded and quick to discount other peoples ideas. such geniuses are so above everyone else that they can't be bothered to pose a rational argument but instead find a deep personal need to insult anyone discussing ideas that they feel is beyond or worth being discussed.

If you read all the posts in this thread then you could deduce fairly easily that those numbers are estimates.

most humans can react at 0.2 seconds.

For every millisecond after 0.2 that not only restricts the time you can react, but it also adds a time factor that your brain has to calculate for prediction. The greater the delay the greater the prediction calculation you have to perform and the more your reaction time is hindered.

Estimates based on what.. seems like most of your estimates are based on opinion which is pretty hard to measure. Is there any point at all to any of this shit? Even if you could quantify something like skill are you really going to be sitting there thinking damn holmes I need 3.664% more skill to win this match. Other than reaction speed there is also prediction and anticipation so that screws your whole equation right there.Using your own numbers your shit is wrong even 90 to a 30 ping thats not 1/3 the reaction time if you are considering that all players react at a base speed of .2 thats .29 to .23 and its about 26% faster not 300%. I've played with high and low pings I don't stand around taking my time aiming you know why? If you do that the lower ping player is probably going to get more shots off on you before you even have a chance. Even at 200+ ping you don't spend more time you just lead further.. which may take a little more time but not the kind of shit you are making up. If you want people to believe anything you are writing back it up with at least some tests not imaginary numbers sprinkled throughout blocks of common sense.

Exactly you're finally getting it. It is based on some logic and the numbers are not all imaginary.. there is some statistical data to back up what i'm saying. The statements I'm making is not really about you versus other players but about playing at your own full potential. See now you're thinking. A few more thought cycles and you would of been there.

Also where are you getting 300% from and no you don't stand around thinking about aiming, but your brain does it naturally (subconsciously). As you said it's very difficult to quantify skill. The reason I expressed these ideas is not because I was necessarily looking for a black and white answer but because I wanted to see what other people had to say based off their own experiences and ideas. I love these types of debates because the people who live within the confines of a black and white logic system fry their brains thinking about this stuff.

// attempting to reduce skill to a quantifiable level

game_player.delay += (reaction.time + delay.ping)

game_player.movement -= game_player.delay;
game_player.aim -= game_player.delay;
game_player.prediction -= game_player.delay;

// skill
game_player.movement += human_player.movement;
game_player.prediction += human_player.prediction;
game_player.aim += human_player.aim;

Ive experienced similar things as Xalibur while converting from 100-150 to 40-60 to 13. IMO it hasnt made me a better player. More the fact that ive adapted my strategy to the new ping. Of course reactiontime is a major factor but not THE factor. Im still, as 13pinger, relying on my old gameplans - defensive, calculating and predicting my opponent (= strategy) more than my aim i.e shaft.

seesoor! I knew there was someone out there agreeing with me! =)

That's cool and I can respect that but I would like to add a few ideas to think about here.

Our potential as how good of QW players never changes. Our potential is limited by a number of factors. How much we play, the strategy we employ when we play, how good the players are who we play, how much we practice and study demos, reaction time (which ties into mouse,computer,ping, speed and our settings)

My question to you guys is:

When you did play with a lower ping were you guys not able to move better? When I do ztricks by setting up mvdsv on local host with (77 fps) I am able to learn bunny maps like ztricks/ztricks2 much faster, because I can do them more consistently. This also brings up an interesting point. I master ztricks far faster on localhost but once I am able to do it, and can pretty much do it on any server as long as my ping is below 100. The reason I say this is interesting is because it ties into my first post (#3) that the lower our ping, the faster we learn complex moves because we (or maybe just me) are able to do them more consistently.

Obviously, as a QW player defensive strategy is a plus but the best QW players are also good at being extremely aggressive. So I tend to think that players who use reaction time to their advantage will make the best aggressive/offensive players. A player like dag who is both equally good at being aggressive and defensive goes mostly undefeated.

I tend to think that the players who are considered the best in each country (who are mostly undefeated, and lose very few games to anyone) have all been priviledged to play quite extensively with very low ping which allowed them to master their reaction game. Learning to react quickly is like any skill we learn in QW, once you do it enough times you get a sense of when to and not do it, when it can be most used to your advantage, and how accurate it is going to be. It's the low ping players who are going to be the first to master their wrist shot reaction game because they can do it far more consistently than a high ping player.

player x | ping 30 | accuracy 30% | time spent calculating shot to achieve 30% accuracy -> 0.3 seconds
player y | ping 90 | accuracy 30% | time spent calculating shot to achieve 30% accuracy -> 0.9 seconds

Also if you guys agree that these stats are true, then you will also agree that player x will not only be able to react faster than player y, but will also be able to shoot more shots within a timeframe. Consider these stats for the RocketLauncher:

(weapon)RL (damage)120,120rad (rate)0.8 (speed)1000 (DmgRate)150/sec

If player x is able to react and pull off a shot 0.6 seconds faster than player y, and his accuracy is 30% then he will have a much higher Damage Rate.

Post #23 I also stated that most humans can react at 0.2 seconds but I studies show that people who play video games develop faster reaction speed. There are games you can download that test your reaction speed.

Btw, I've realized that the reason my grammar and spelling have been so horrid is because the Post Comment box is so small making it difficult for me to spot errors. My future posts I will do within a word processing program and then copy->past over.

I regularly play with 200ms-300ms on a 28k modem(rate 3000, cl_c2spps 1). Movement is much harder. For example DM2 RJ up to tele from big I make near 100% fooling around on my localhost but I make it much less online. RA secret jump over water is very hard HPB but I make it most of the time LPB. I can also beat trick maps like ztricks on my localhost in a fraction of the time compared to playing them HPB.

My RL aim I shoot very quickly HPB, I don't wait to lineup shots. I need to shoot before they lineup. I can get 10-20 RL directs in povdmm4, but I mostly use RL obviously. I rarely play really good players in that though.

that's interesting pg. there's very few 200-300ms players out there these days so it's nice to hear there experience :D

quit bitchin' start playin'.

pg: I find the lower the ping I have the easier it is to do rj jumps dm2 stairs->mega. I'm quite good at that jump now and probably do it 85% of the time with 60-90 ping. With 40 ping I probably make it about 95% of the time and I'm always surprised how much more lift I get. I almost never get a really good lift with 70-90 and usually just make the jump. I almost always find myself soaring with 40 or less ping with lift to spare.

"professor krang the wonder fuck"

best. insult. ever.