This guy is a pure moron. He shafts with the bot for a few consecutive frags getting around 80% lg, then he turns it off, and shafts himself and misses everything to drop the lg % to 50's and repeats.

lame russian fuck

lame russian fuck

has anyone considered the possibility of some random player faking as ilf?

hehe i either think its someone else ye, the ilf thing is nothing to get angry about, its comedy now, i dont think ilf takes it that serious anymore either, i dont think he is trying to get away with it :)

omg stop faking as me plz.. i never shaft below 55% B<

hahaha

Why you don't blame Zip with cheating, he has about 178 frags and 55 lg, it is about 1 frags per second :) I'm not sure he is not cheater or maybe he used incorrect version of the bot.

Until there's some decent cheat detection in the LGC there is no way to be sure. Any number of cheats could be employed. An example would be a modified player model that shows the collision hit box surrounding the player model, or just make the player model a simple low poly box. This would greatly increase somone's ability to get higher eff because they would see an extented region of where to target the player. Another cheat is a modified povdmm4. Since the map is only being verified by the client, someone could create a map that has transparent walls, so you always knew where exactly the bot was when normally hidden from view. People could also use the modified bolt red shaft which has proven for many people to greatly improve eff. It lags less, seems to pinpoint more, is very visible yet doesn't block your important viewable areas in the least. My point is I could create a long laundry list of cheats that could be easily thought-up by players who know this game inside out from playing it for years.

I was actually thinking of offering Phil help with the cheat detection for the LGC tournament. I have been a programmer for a number of years and I'm sure I'd prove useful to him. An idea I've been brewing over is creating a custom Fuhquake client and a simple cheat detection server. Players would have to connect to the server merely for cheat detection. When the game finishes your statistics would automatically be uploaded to the server with a tracking ID. If the demo is submitted Phil would have to be able to finding the tracking ID and statistics associated with the demo for it to be accepted.

Anyways if he's up for it come Season 3, I may have some time by then to assist him.

afaik phil is preparing a new version of lgc pack which will somehow prevent ppl from using aimbots etc. then everyone including zip will have to re-do their 55%

..Phil would have to be able to *FIND the tracking ID..

Actually what would be even better is to use Phil's PHP qwd search function and the server code could automatically match the encrypted ID and statistics and verify the authenticity of the demo on the fly.

Phil, just incase you're curious about this idea, the ID would be autogenerated using a dynamic hash list where the statistics would be stored.

in any kind of client/server architecture, by definition, a server cannot assume the truth of anything the client tells him.

this has been admitted by everyone from carmack on down as one of the main factors why you can never be certain serverside if a client is legit or not.

the new season will not really have any anti-aimbot code or whatever, although thew new code could be used to assist identifiying an aimbot during demo review

either way, aimbots are quite obvious. just like its obvious that you are playing VS a bot, not a human. i dont think the frogbot has anyone fooled that its a human player. same thing with aimbots.

if you want, download the anm.zip demo and the ilf demo. (the ilf demo is still online, if you click on his name you can download it. its only disqualified from the rankings)

download them and compare the two, i meant

I'm not laying claim to being totally cheat-free. No one could ever make such a claim. The goal of any cheat-prevention system is to merely make it as difficult as possible for cheaters to succeed. The best solution is one where you not only build up your defenses but continuing to evolve it (especially when you hear of new exploits) by continuing to make it increasingly difficult for cheaters to prosper. By choosing to ignore the problem you give free pass to those who have total disregard for being devious.

Btw, the system I'm proposing would have a modified client with a component dll and a completely proprietary server (no src available) in which the server is asking the client for encrypted data. I also propose eliminating from the LGC modified fuhquake client any commands or extraneous netcode/proxy support that could easily be exploited.

For obvious reasons the LGC fuhquake client source code would have to be released but the dll component that works exclusively would not, just as fuh does not release the source to his security dll.

The dll component that works exclusively with the proprietary server that is.. What makes the server even more difficult to crack is if we kept it soley between you and I, (or if you wanted to develop this system yourself) then you would eliminate any prying backwards engineering on that end. Other than the possibility of packet sniffers no one would know exactly what your server was asking the client dll. In the event of packet sniffers, this would be the reason for encrypting the data.

One final thought. If you think about it since the LGC bot is totally client side it doesn't even need the netcode other than to talk to the client host server which the LGC bot runs off of. If you were really feeling ambitious you could rip out all the netcode/prediction code and make the game data 100% client side to eliminate proxy hacks. This would also get rid of that 13 ping.

Also consider the idea of planting encrypted data inside the client dll. A good packet sniffer might sniff out that data but let's say your server randomly at its request (the client has no idea what data you'll be requesting) only asked for different chunks of the data your client.dll contained and kept a record of which chunks it asked for. If you happened to receive different chunks of information, you'd record it as well and know that the client sending the data is hacking as it doesn't match the server request.

There's lots of little tricks like this you could do when you have 100% ownership of the server code. You could have many different randomization methods of calling information that the client has no idea about, which would give you a good idea if someone was hacking or not.

Anyways phil, I'm just throwing some ideas at you. I'm not trying to stress you out but if you find that cheating is a problem and you want to discuss some ideas, let me know. Cheat-prevention is just a bit of an interest of mine ;>>

phil:
I had previously viewed both the ilf and the anm.zip demos before requested that I compare them. By your request I have watched them both again twice this time. This is my opinion on the two demos:

In the ilf demo it is obvious botting not just because of his overall accuracy but how's he's accurate. First of all, he obviously hasn't played the lgc bot much without using a bot because like every other player he makes no attempt to position himself. He just shoots and aims and somehow miraculously he overpowers the bot. The 2nd reason why he's so obvious is because he's an apparent n00b. His POV is shaky like a leaf and the way he moves is retarded. There's only 1 or 2 times when ilf toggles the bot off and shows how terrible his aim really is.

The big difference I see with the anm.zip demo is *IF* anm.zip is botting he has played a lot without using a bot. anm.zip positions himself strategically and tries to trap the bot how one might expect. The reason people might question anm.zip's accuracy is because his aim is a little too "sticky" at times especially when the bot is a good distance and also when the bot is up close and personal. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I find one of the most difficult things about mastering eff against the bot is keeping the bot in your "sweet spot". At a distance it is totally different locking onto the bot then when it is right in front of you. anm.zip's shaft just seems to stick no matter the distance or how fast the transition the distance becomes which just comes off as odd. You can adjust your aim to lock at any distance but usually you have to release the attack and slightly reposition yourself to get a new lock on. If anm.zip is botting it would also be apparent that anm.zip has good aim against the bot witout using the bot assist, and toggles the use of assist more frequently than ilf did.

2nd Paragraph, 3rd Line:
..*UNLIKE every other player..

oneshotflinch's definition of "one final thought" differs greatly from mine

#23

I guess I could have been more specific and said one final thought on "cheat-prevention". I was so faded when I wrote all that. I had been up for way too many hours :p

oneshot do you write books for living or something? just curious :)

HEHE

23 and 25 :)

oneshotflinch you should get a column on esr or smth, etc :p

talk is cheap

Nope no books by me but if I ever did, do you guys think "oneshotflinch" would make a good pen name :p

def:

Silence is boring. Consider that the basic premise behind how our brains work has fundamentally to do with chatter. Intelligence is a derivitive of all your neurons chattering to one another, which is also known as neural networking.

And if I actually spent 2 seconds to proof my comments I might actually spell "derivative" properly along with all the other 100+ spelling and grammar mistakes I've made ;<<

code it, or don't talk about it.

def <3
dairy is rape.

#28,

you interested in cybernetics? the study of networks, not just robotics..

#30

Okay get your point but unfortunately I don't have time at the present because I'm going into my finals and busy as hell. I'll see what I can do once I'm finished my course.

#32

AI does fascinate me both biological and robotic. Most AI in games is borrowed from robotics like AI pathfinding, finite state machines, genetic algorithms and neural networking. That's because robotics deals with the complexities of solving "real-world" problems where games only need to rely on "smoke and mirrors". As games become more advanced developers are looking to more concrete methods of AI.

If you want to learn about how advanced bioligical intelligence is (assuming you haven't) read up on the bacteria flagellum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellum

On a lower level look into how DNA encodes for the production of amino acids and proteins also known as protein synthesis.

http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/VL/GG/protein_synthesis.html

Biolical Intelligence is incredibly evolved and it may be a long time before we can replicate it in its true glory in an artificial model.

As for cybernetics, there has been tremendous strides in that department already. You can buy optical implants that give you 100x increase in human vision. There are ear implants that allow totally deaf people to hear.

If are interested in learning about how cybernetics can increase intelligence your best bet is to look into the emerging sciences of nano-technological.

*NANOTECHNOLOGY

Here's a thorough document on the bacteria flagellum:

http://www.lce.hut.fi/teaching/S-114.500/Bacterial_Flagellum.pdf

If the reading starts to bore you, have a look at the pictures in that document and keep in mind that this bacteria flagellum exists in all your cells. It is a nano-scale engine, and not only that it is the most advanced engine known to man. It's propeller rotates at 100,000 rpms that can stop and turn on a dime, and this machine auto-senses and reacts to its environment. If you look at it magnified, its parts look exactly like any other engine's parts you've seen before. It is assembled using advanced assembly code and consists of 40 component parts. Each part is integral to its functioning. Some argue this "irreducible complexity" disproves part of Darwin's theory of evolution.

It's highly mechanized structure, intelligence, and performance makes for an interesting subject none-the-less.

oneshotflinch is one of the reasons I like qw and its community; keep it up, oneshot! ;)

oneshotflinch calm down man, the subject of this topic was shaftcheating..

Thanks #36

#37

I don't think the subject of AI is entirely off topic. After all, we are talking about playing bots here. I also don't see anyone pursuing the conversation of cheating in this thread at this time.

A little time ago I read something about quake being used by scientists for a.i. projects.

IF YOU WANT SOMETHING CRAZY LIKE PINEAPPLE, ILL KILL YOU